new more generalized approach to an old problem

[quietann]

This came up in a previous entry, which I have since made private, because I feared that the conversation would get out of hand.

(Context: I was not invited to a good friend's baby shower, and felt peevish about it. If you want to discuss this specific instance with me, send me email.)

So this was lyonesse:
"to be brutally honest, i think the thing that's "terribly wrong" is that you are so quick and so glad to take offense at stuff like this. it makes it harder to be friends with you, b/c who knows when they will appear to "fail" or "exclude" you in some random way? i've gotten on the wrong end of this with you several times, & it's no fun."

and this was me, in response:
"you've gotten it from me, we've talked, apologies were made etc. I don't hold grudges against you or anyone else for years over stuff like this, or even months.

"The odd thing is that my *good* friends are good enough friends that they know I am OK with not being invited to every little thing. I think I have reached this point with you. It is more a problem with people who know me more casually."

OK. Now, I know that explanations are just that -- explanations -- and I don't mean to come across as obstreperous, but...

I thought a lot about this, and I think my problem is more specifically with *women*. My own experience is that women do things behind each others' backs a lot more, whereas men (in general) are more direct. And I am not innocent of this behavior myself. I take strongly after my mother in this regard; I think she was in her 60s before she had a group of female friends she could really trust. So maybe I do expect women to treat me badly (and did I mention that the professor who spiked me with regard to the MGH job is female? and the "mad Argentinian" professor who threw me out of her class and called me stupid is also female?)

On a more general level, I am a fundamentally pessimistic person. Too much analyzing and thinking seems to make it worse. In current couples therapy, the puzzle to both the therapist and deguspice is "What will make Ann happy?" And... I really can't say. Meds make me care less, but still life feels a lot like I am just "coping" with a lot of unfortunate things that I just cannot change at this time (e.g. choosing Harvard over BU, even though Harvard's program was set up mostly for Ph.D.'s whereas BU's was set up for persons interested in applied statistical work...) There are small pleasures, though. And these do mean a lot to me.

Comments

[klingonlandlady.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I also didn't think much of female politics while growing up, but I think the women we hang with nowadays are pretty trustable, straight-shooters. I like them.

My problem has been getting busy with this and that, and not devoting the time I'd like to a bunch of people, both used-to-be-close friends and acquaintances who I think it'd be nice to be closer to. probably people are not inviting me to things, but often I've been too much into my own stuff to notice till after the fact.

I also find it a bit of a barrier lately, the fact that you seem to see most situations through this lens of who is cooler and thinner than you, and who may be snubbing you... Really in the scheme of things you are reasonably cool and thin too, and are just as capable of being social.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

A lot of what is going on with me has to do with not having a job. It's a major part of my sense of self-worth. deguspice and the therapist both think that a lot of this pissy bad mood will lift when I am employed. (or have decided not to be employed)

Why the "thin and cool" stuff now? I wish I could say. I did write an LJ entry about it but no one seems to have read it. It's here. Mostly background info, because I am not sure I am ready to share the less rational part of it all. The bit about exercise is especially vexing.

BTW, I don't think I get left out because of not being thin!

[jbsegal.livejournal.com]

I read it...and it explains why you have problems with food and weight. However, none of it really gets in to why you're so convinced that the thin girls are getting all the advantages that you're not and so there wasn't much to reply to...

(And, fwiw, you're not fat. You're not thin by any means, but you're NOT fat...that you think you are is a seperate discussion...)

And yes, I know about the out-of-work depression thing and I totally sympathize...*HUG*

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I'm not 100% sure either... though I see evidence all the time, and maybe I don't see evidence the other way. Here's an example: at HSPH, the female *professors* tended to be thin, whereas the (equivalently aged) female staff members (secretaries, security guards, etc.) tended to be fat. And amongst the students, *I* was one of the fattest. (In that case, age may have had something to do with it, because most of the students were at least 10 years younger than me. And also, a lot of them were MDs, who are known to have a high rate of eating disorders...)

I don't know what this is evidence of, though....

As for the job issue... I am getting nibbles, so things are not completely depressing. I probably need to be a bit more aggressive about pursuing known leads, though.

[browngirl.livejournal.com]

I read it. I've just been too busy to give it a sensible well-thought-out reply.

*big huggle*

A.
still too busy for a sensible w-t-o reply, but *does* care!

[quietann.livejournal.com]

*thank you*

Small pleasures always help.

[badgerthorazine.livejournal.com]

*Big hugs*
I can certainly relate to what you say. I think it's part of the reason that I'm much more scared/shy to ask out another woman than I am to ask out/date a guy. Flirting, of course, is MUCH easier for me, but again, easier with guys or with women that I've learned to trust over time. Peevish at everyday things, though, I can certainly understand. I'm always pissed when I don't get invited to various events that I *think* that folks know darn well I'd enjoy. Then again, I've been sick so often of late that it's hard for me to remember when I last went out for the hell of it.:P

In the end, I'm probably guilty of the same sort of pessimism and crankiness. :P But we'll find a balance someday, I know we will!

Re: Small pleasures always help.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Thanks for this. I got a lot of "you should not be peevish about this" and very few people admitting that they, too, might feel peevish under similar circumstances.

The balance comes over time. I am much better than I used to be, and also now more aware that these peevish moods strike during the week before my period. Funny how that works...

Re: Small pleasures always help.

[badgerthorazine.livejournal.com]

*big snuggles* Ayup. Me too. :P (although certian times of the year, like right now, make me angsty in the extreme)

As long as I remember to apply the occasional hug I end up okay. :-)

[donnad.livejournal.com]

Ann, you are not fat by any means. Do you think I am fat? FWIW you weight almost 20 pounds LESS than I do. You are a woman, women are supposed to have curves. Most of the guys I have associated with would rather have a girlfriend with a few curves and a little "meat" on their bones than a "skinny mini" full of sharp edges.

I thought a lot about this, and I think my problem is more specifically with *women*. My own experience is that women do things behind each others' backs a lot more, whereas men (in general) are more direct.

I can really understand this. I tend to get along better with the guys than I do women. I never thought of it as a mistrust, at least not on my part. I was once told (a very long time ago, by a close friend at the time) that the reason women avoid me and tended to not like me is that they were afraid that I was trying to steal their boyfriends because I was getting along with the guys so well. At the time it seemed ridiculous, but thinking about it, it was insecurity on their parts, not MY problem. At first it really bothered me that I couldn't seem to make any close female friends, (my mother even asked me once if I had an female friends because I was always hanging out with guys) But I realized that it didn't matter what the gender of my friends was, they were still my friends and liked me for who I was, not who they wanted me to be.

And your libido problem, you are not alone. In this social group, I thought I was the only one with no interest in sex. So many people post about what great physical relationships they have, I thought I was weird, but after reading that you have been experiencing exactly the same thing, well, I don't feel so bad. I also read that something like 40% of women have the same problem.

Also FWIW, (I was going to post this to the other message, but it vanished from my friends page) I honestly think that your not having been invited to the shower was an oversight rather than having been done with malicious intent.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Hm, well, there is fat and fat. I think I have a great fear of becoming obese, which given my family history (to be detailed in a later post) is not that unrealistic.

As for the libido issue... being a susboid does have its costs. People are very open about the fabulous sex they are having, the variations, the crushes, and what have you. If one is possessed of less libido, it can make one feel left out, in a way. In my case, I suspect that there is actually something physiological going on, perhaps peri-menopausal symptoms and/or some loss of sensation due to the diabetes. And through talking with various women, I'm discovering that there are more susboid women who just aren't all that interested in sex than anyone would imagine.

As for the invite thing, yes, I made the original entry private again, because the discussion was threatening to get out of hand. And the hostess *had* just had major surgery (stomach stapling, which I could rant about but I won't...) when she was planning the shower. So she might have spaced on inviting me, or she might have decided that she only wanted to invite people she gets along with, or whatever.

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

re: women.

I hear you and empathize, and have been there myself and all of that sort of reply, including the feelings of being left out, targetted, and depressed (and even the research and choosing education programs and statistics for all of that). I won't speak to your situation or your challenges or how you should overcome them. What follows is a partial list of the steps I've taken to increase my own depth and breadth of associations with women; hopefully, somwhere in that you will find something that will also help you out.

- I've added to my CD collection many more CD's by female singers, and tried to listen to their experiences and opinions through their songs.
- I've read more books by female homourists, such as Erma Bombeck, PS Wall, Ellen DeGeneres, and Life's a Stitch: a book of contemporary women's humor
- I've reminded myself over and over again that many of the women I see as prickly types are probably prickly for the same reason I've been wary of them
- Over the years, I've spent a large amount of time active in the bisexual community talking with women with experiences like mine
- I've looked for women in my professional life and social life who I felt really had their act together and were Good People and have tried to emulate their behaviors, and have come to trust many of them enough to ask for their opinions and advice on various topics
- I've made a concious choice to spend more time talking with, hanging out with, and in general paying attention to the females I know, and listening to what they have to say

I'm still not great at the whole process, but I've met some fantastic women, had some great mentors, and learned that, as someone else noted in your comments, the women in the social groups you seem likely to hang out in are generally not "hair, makeup, fluff, and spitefulness" types ala high school. Give people enough initial credit, and you might find yourself pleasantly surprised. -H...

[quietann.livejournal.com]

That's a good list... I will say that I really, really like female humor. A lot of comedy done by males seems stupid to me, if not offensive. If you watch me read the comics page, well, I start with "For Better or For Worse" and in general read all the stuff with female authors while picking only a few of the male authors (or is that artists?) ... Also most of the books I really love are authored by women.

As for female mentors... I have had a few. In fact, throughout graduate school most of the professors I worked closely with were female. This was a mixed blessing.

[maedbh7.livejournal.com]

As for female mentors... I have had a few. In fact, throughout graduate school most of the professors I worked closely with were female. This was a mixed blessing.

Well, too, there's the people you *have* to mentor under, the people you *desire* to mentor under, and then there's the people you *should* mentor under, especially in college. But also in life, in terms of women as a collective.

While there's people I have had to work for or study from and what not, I tried to take from them the good points, and leave behind the bad. Just because their title or mine says I *should* be learning from them, doesn't mean I will or can or that they are qualified to teach me or anyone else.

And for me, desire and I are old enemies, and I've learned that what I think/feel will be good for me and what actually *is* good for me are two diffent things, and so while I continue to observe the folks I -want- to learn from, I try to do that observing from afar, so as not to go all obsessive-compulsive about it all.

And then there's the folks I Should learn from. What I do is try to pay attention to the criticisms people have of me. For instance, people tell me I am entirely too crass, blunt, confrontational. Whether I agree with them or not is not relevant; this is how others see me. Then, I decide if I mind being seen that way; to some extent, I mind, because I know that being seen that way keeps other people from getting close to me. (This is very relevant if what you want is a date :) ) Then, I try to find people/women who are the opposite of that. Meaning, I try to find women who other people feel (or who I feel) are gentle, softspoken, and direct-but-only-as-requested-and-then-as-gently-as-possible, and then I watch them and try to learn from their example how it is they manage to be all those things. If I know them well, I ask them about the process of being all those things. And if I trust them, then I ask them to mentor me on how I can become all those things.

It's a process, and not an over-night fix. I think I've been in this whole Rennaisance of Women process for about 2 years now. And I plan to stay here until I trust/respect similar numbers of women to the number of men I trust/respect.

Not that you really requested more of my opinions on the subject, but there they are, nonetheless. Next time we are at OPN or something, we can chat more about all of this if you're interested. -H...

[candle-light.livejournal.com]

I don't know you very well. I tried a few times to reach out to you a few years ago, but was met with silence. I'm not the most outgoing person in the world, and I'm also pretty oblivious, but I kind of got the feeling you don't like me. I don't think I've deliberately excluded you from anything (not that we've been inviting people to much of anything lately). We didn't invite almost anyone to the baby shower my in-laws threw for us for our first born. We sort of assumed no-one would really want to come, and if we didn't invite them, they wouldn't feel obligated to come. Probably not what was going on with the shower you weren't invited to, but I thought I'd share our thought processes about showers.

In general I'm friendlier with men also. Mostly due to circumstances and common interests. Also, I'm lazy, and friendships with men seem to take less effort to maintain. :-)

[tb]

I'm about to be off net for a few days and don't really have time to craft a thoughtful response, so please forgive anything that seems sketchy or harsh; that's not my intent. BTW, I did read the entry, about your history with weight, but there just didn't seem anything there I could comment on.

I think you do have some unrealistic filters on your perceptions of other people (who doesn't?) which are getting in your way and contributing to your frustrations. Also, I think you sometimes direct your anger not at the people who have hurt you but at bystanders.

I'd propose a few thought experiments: remember the lame! Our crowd is usually more distracted than malicious, so repeat the mantra about not attributing actions to well thought-out malice when we're far more likely to be space cadets. If you do think someone is being malicious, try to keep your anger on-target and get a reality check from other people you trust. I prefer to avoid annoying people than attack them; they just aren't worth my time and energy.

On the weight front, try purging your mental vocabulary of disparaging remarks about women's weight, replacing them with more neutral descriptive terms (e.g. "thin woman" instead of "skinny minnie"), or at least note how you feel when you do so. I think that will help defuse some of the tension; dwelling on some things just makes them fester. I have been overweight since at least my early teen years and have a ton of baggage, as it were, around this issue too. While I do find myself resenting some of the perks thin women seem to get in our culture, I try not to resent them; after all, many women can't help being thin.