the offending message

[quietann]

Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ
2. The American G. I.

One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

YOU MIGHT WANT TO PASS THIS ON,

AS MANY SEEM TO FORGET BOTH OF THEM.

Comments

[awfief.livejournal.com]

I never take offense at those. Someone offers (and succeeds) in dying for me, that's their decision and their problem.

I don't honor things on how hard they were to get -- not material things and not spiritual things. "Freedom" is a wonderful thing, and I honor that because it's a wonderful thing, not because of how many people or who specifically died or got hurt or changed their life trying to obtain it.

[xiphias.livejournal.com]

Stating that Jesus offered to die for me is offensive. The Romans offered to execute Jesus as a traitor to the State. That's not really the same thing.

[feste-sylvain.livejournal.com]

So everyone else who's ever died for me, including cops and fire-fighters, weren't "defining forces"?

What a pathetically narrow-minded statement. On so many levels.

[weatherseed.livejournal.com]

Not to mention the billions of people that contributed to your existence by *not* killing your ancestors.

[weatherseed.livejournal.com]

And the Jews over here killed him for blasphemy and treason.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

*facepalm* Messages like this make me want to apologize for having been born a Christian, even though I subsequently left. Ergh.

[ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com]

That is a seriously kickass userpic. Where's that from?

My usual response to the whole JC-died-for-you shpiel is:

"Jesus is the solution to a problem I don't have".

Guaranteed success-rate to shut 'm up. Heh.

[awfief.livejournal.com]

eh, it's all mythology.

Jesus can offer to die for me. Given that that allegedly happened over 2000 years ago, it's not very meaningful in a personal way unless I choose to make it so.

People offered to die for our country in the Revolutionary and "Civil" wars, and many women risked their lives in the suffrage movement. I never asked them to die for me, and their death is not very meaningful in a personal way unless I choose to make it so.

The freedoms, honors and rights that have come to me freely because of past people's sacrifices are things I honor because I value them -- NOT because people in the past have sacrificed. I honor things that have come to me freely with very little sacrifice, past or present, as well.

You certainly can take offense, that's up to you. I'm not sure why you commented to me, as *I* do not, and still do not, take offense.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Thanks! Your userpic is pretty kickass, too. As for mine, I think the original art is by Alex Ross.

[earthling177.livejournal.com]

I find it that asking them "EXCUSE ME SIR, BUT IS JESUS SAVING YOU MONEY ON YOUR LONG DISTANCE RIGHT NOW" tends to get a bunch of people cracking up and a bunch of people pissed off, but they stop talking religion in non-religious sites. ;-)

[clauclauclaudia]

I made that icon! (Or several people each had the same good idea.) I have the art noted as shadowflyer's.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

I think you're missing the point.

Besides the whole Jewish thing, there's the fact that the woman in question sent this to an Arisia Programming mailing list -- the one where various people connected to Arisia are discussing programming items. Off-topic spams are, I think, generally considered inappropriate for mailing lists, especially topically-focused ones. I pointed that out to her, as well as the Jewish thing.

xiphias, as well as the majority of Jews I know, really do not react well to being proselytized to.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

Love it! At this point, it would shock me if the woman in question says anything for quite a while. I was, apparently, polite in my response to her, compared to some people.

[quietann.livejournal.com]

**snicker**

However, the person in question was so generally clueless about why folks were offended that I doubt she'd get it.

[deguspice.livejournal.com]

I didn't find the original, but a quick search of http://www.alexrossart.com/ shows lots of comic book art in that style.

[clauclauclaudia]

That is the style being emulated, yes, but as far as I know the graphic is an original.

http://www.cafepress.com/libertyjustice

http://www.livejournal.com/users/shadowflyer/31235.html

shadowflyer there seems to credit ardenranger. Who credits bifemmefatale. Who has an icon of the graphic, but doesn't give a source. Okay, there we are. I gotta update my userpic comments, and then maybe ask bifemmefatale about it.

[awfief.livejournal.com]

Right. I was giving my opinion, which is different from xiphias'. I have been proselytized to many times and unlike most geeks, I've learned that a smile and a "thank you" or "wow, that's heavy, I didn't even know him!" when someone says "Jesus died for your sins" ends the conversation, and I can get on with my life.

Arisia and "the community" and geeks in general don't know when to let go. I gave my opinion, that *I* don't care when that happens. In fact, once someone at a bus stop asked if I'd accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and I said, "Actually, I'm Jewish" in a nice tone and she gushed about how lucky I was that I was one of the Chosen People because I didn't have to do any work to get into the Kingdom of Heaven.

As someone who has had to go through picket lines of Jesus freaks in order to attend queer conferences like Creating Change, and had to deal with Jesus freaks at prides in small towns, I know that I cannot change these people's minds. The next best thing is to be nice, so we get along, and can perhaps see each other's points but disagree.

I wasn't on the list, so yes, I missed the point and the context. That's why you posted it here, no? To let people know what was said, who weren't there?

The majority of Jews (and people, period) that you know do not react well to being proselytized to, but they would do well in life to learn to drop it, try to understand that the message was meant with goodwill, and move on. Arisia has enough on-topic trolls; On other lists, that obvious a spam with no content would have been easily ignored, with everyone chatting on the side about how weird that was, nobody's feelings being hurt, and a moderator reminding the poster to stay on topic.

[ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com]

Even the more fun! At her expense though.

Sorry. Nasty streak. Yetzer haRa and all that.

[rubynye.livejournal.com]

Yes, you did, and I was very remiss in not saying so. I apologize.

[adamdobay.livejournal.com]

Wow, that's a great sentence. I'm going to use that if I ever come across someone wanting to convert me. Thankfully it's rare, there aren't many people like that in Hungary.

[ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com]

Isn't it great? I am rather proud of it too. The X-ian couldn't talk back to me after that. Gobsmacked :-)

[adamdobay.livejournal.com]

While I don't get offended, I do feel it disturbing when people want to place me in this loophole of
a., You were a sinner to start with; and
b., Only J.C. can save you from that,
because put this way it's clearly a situation forced on me by an external source, not to mention I'm taking the fall for some other guy. It's like someone coming up to me saying "Okay this guy had this drug deal but isn't around so you're going to be convicted, but we have this great lawyer who could get you out of it."

One thing I felt was quite offensive one time was when this guy who I talked to said "well the Jews have it all wrong, besides they did kill Jesus you know". Uh, yeah right.

[adamdobay.livejournal.com]

One other thing that cracked me up when I heard it:
"Have you found Jesus?"
"Don't tell me you've lost him again."

[ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com]

*LOL*

Though I must say my line is more theologically profound. After, we don't need Jesus because we don't have Original Sin and need no atonement for that.

Another one I like using is: "No thank you. I already have a Covenant."

Heh.

[adamdobay.livejournal.com]

Though I must say my line is more theologically profound.

Agreed. Though if you have the time, it's also fun to refute some of their claims with your own quotations. I did that to two Jehovah Witnesses who came over one day and handed me a tract about why God doesn't approve of things like homosexuality. Probably the guy I debated with wasn't a professional but he gave up after a few rebuttals. And the best way I found for that was to refer to the original Hebrew when they talk about the Old Testament, because I found that they knew many passages in Hungarian but knew nothing about the Hebrew. It also helped that they couldn't provide an exact quote that forbade homosexuality. They gave up after a time. Then I tried converting them to Eastern religions and then they left. :)

"No thank you. I already have a Covenant."

Hehehe.

[vvalkyri.livejournal.com]

:adore:

[ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com]

Yeah. When Xians start quoting "Old Testament" they find themselves in deep water with me. For instance:

Xian: the Bible forbids homosexuality... it says so, Lev. 18:22.
Me: yeah, it does say that, now doesn't it? So does it forbid and prescribe a lot of other things. Like...
... do you keep from making fire on Saturday?
... leave the corners of your field for the poor?
... attach tassles to the corners of your garments?
... do you refrain from eating pig, rabbit, horse, shellfish, etc?
... do you prevent the boiling of the kid in its mother's milk?

No? You don't keep all these "Old Testament" laws?
Xian: no, but we don't have to because Jesus abolished/superceded the Law.
Me: oh, really? If that's the case, what's the problem with homosexuality? Don't you think he abolished that too?
Xian: ...
Me: Yeah, go chew on that for a while.

[ploni-bat-ploni.livejournal.com]

Is that Sappho from Lesbos?
Cool...

[adamdobay.livejournal.com]

the Bible forbids homosexuality... it says so, Lev. 18:22.

Wow, that's really in there. Though it could still be interpreted so it only refers to a sexual act between two males so if two homosexual men refrain from having sex with each other they should be okay right? And the passage doesn't seem to refer to Lesbians.

no, but we don't have to because Jesus abolished/superceded the Law.

Oh that's my favourite illogicality, when they say
a., every word of the Bible is holy and unquestionable.
b., Jesus overwrote some things but that's not in the Bible, we just, uh, know it.